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Pinecone trailhead寻找总结

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发表于 2006-5-27 22:02:31 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
轻视了,仗着有二个GPS,路线没有认真查对,在~14.4mile时应该走左边,我们却顺着路直开过去,走到一个平行的废弃的logging road上,虽然GPS显示方向正确,不断接近正确的Junction,但由于highwater过不了河,无法就近回归到正确的logging road上,结果连trailhead都没走到。其实103上写的还是很详实的,可惜用了GPS却没有注意103上的细节:......At 14.4mile keep left ..and 300m farther,at 15Mile sign,stay left.......
总结:不能光依靠GPS, Road Description还是要详细看的,特别是Topo Canada地图上很多logging Road都没有。不清楚的每个叉路口都要留神一下。Road Description信息要随身带且要常核对/检查路线(这次偷懒没随身带 :oops: )。

这是路线图(图中我画出的桔红色线应该是正确的logging road,和我们走的废弃的logging road平行)。


1.打黑叉的地方—停车后往上走,爬高一百米左右后发觉方向不对,回返。
2.沿平行于正确logging road的一废弃logging road前行,踏木跨溪后,越来越难走,于是放弃回返
3.向正确的logging road靠近,但被一河流阻挡,水面宽水流急,无法过河,于是放弃。估计如果能过河的话,应该能够走回到正确的logging road上
4.打红叉的地方是一个Junction(~14.4mile/23.2km),我们就是这里走错的。应该向左边,我们顺着路走了右边,不过当时注意力都在车和一个个大水坑上


FYI:



1. 出发前收集的road info

lulululu
本周六活动召集:Pinecone Lake 雪鞋行 (5月27日)


How To Find: Follow the E-110 branch road to its terminus at a small landing. E-110 is found by driving the Mamquam Mainline to the "18 Mile" sign (29km). Take the left spur (E-Main) for 300m and turn left onto "E-100". With a HC 4wd, you can drive another 2km to the junction of E-100 and E-110. Take the left onto E-110, and drive about 2km (HC 4wd, ignore spur roads to the left and right) to the end of E-110, a small landing.



2. Road Waypoints(事后去查出的 :oops: ):

49°41.0' -122°54.8' =Km 22.2/Mile 15 W Line (keep left)
49°41.0' -122°54.6' =Km 22.4/Mile 15 Mamquam M22 Knothole Lake
49°40.6' -122°54.4' =creek
49°40.6' -122°54.4' =Km 22.5 Mamquam M24 Pinecone-Burke
49°38.8' -122°54.6' =Km 27.4/Mile 18 Mamquam E-Main/E100
49°38.8' -122°54.6' =Jct Mamquam River Main
49°38.6' -122°54.6' =Jct Keep left for E100, straight ahead for Emain
49°39.0' -122°54.0' =Switchback
49°38.5' -122°53.5' =Jct Mamquam E100 & Mamquam E110
49°38.5' -122°53.4' =Switchback
49°38.5' -122°52.7' =End of Road, start of Pinecone Lake Trail

3.GPS track图:
发表于 2006-5-27 23:10:23 | 显示全部楼层
不是早就达成共识:走到哪儿算哪儿! :lol:

而且野TRAIL的风景更美呢,LULU不必介意啦,下次陪你把Pinecone踏平。 :no1:  :aa10:
发表于 2006-5-28 00:32:37 | 显示全部楼层
看来确实是大意了,呵呵。如果有正确的waypoints或者103的地图的话应该就能及早发现了。你只有trailhead的waypoint?

Mamquam River好像不太小,不知道你们走的那段现在究竟有多大。如果特别大的话应该也能发现走错了,不过也难说,也许会觉得废弃的logging road也会有过河的桥。:roll:

没关系啦,走哪个logging road,哪条trail不一样,重点是走。:P

:wel:
发表于 2006-5-28 01:58:33 | 显示全部楼层
不要过于依赖GPS。GPS还是有误差的。请看我转贴的一篇文章,用Garmin 60CS与60CSx同时记录,还会有较大的差异。



发表于 2006-5-28 05:50:58 | 显示全部楼层
Mashimaro
不是早就达成共识:走到哪儿算哪儿! :lol:

而且野TRAIL的风景更美呢,LULU不必介意啦,下次陪你把Pinecone踏平。 :no1:  :aa10:


我一點也不介意, 反正已舒展了筋骨。 :lol:

我就不想再去那個地方了...由公路口駛上Forest Road, 大概需要一個小時 (還未到路尾)。 Forest Road 已日久失收, 崎嶇不平, 大坑小坑沿途皆是。愈後段, 水坑 / 土溝愈大。我們如坐在過山車中, 車子左搖右晃, 數次腦袋撞到車廂玻璃窗上, 以為頭顱已摔破了。最後心肝脾肺也被那輛過山車拋到七上八落, 于是開始暈車, 幾乎支持不過來....  :(
C
发表于 2006-5-28 10:43:50 | 显示全部楼层
其實在Website也找到了Forest Service Road 的圖片,也把路標譯成Waypoints.  也十分準確。

但到了開叉路,前面一條是平的,另一是長窄,上山,的。不其然便走錯了。(還有上了山之後是否可繼續前行也不知道,要是不能,在大斜坡倒行下來,也非常危險,不敢試。

總結:沒有高身的SUV (像大Mike的車)日久失修的FSR 是愈來愈難走。

Alex
发表于 2006-5-28 10:46:12 | 显示全部楼层
虎行北美
不要过于依赖GPS。GPS还是有误差的。请看我转贴的一篇文章,用Garmin 60CS与60CSx同时记录,还会有较大的差异。


这两幅图没有地图比例尺,但我估计误差不会太大。实用中精度一般都小于10m,GPS还是可依赖的。这次走错路应该和GPS精度/误差无关。 :wink:
发表于 2006-5-28 11:33:16 | 显示全部楼层
JQK
[quote]虎行北美
不要过于依赖GPS。GPS还是有误差的。请看我转贴的一篇文章,用Garmin 60CS与60CSx同时记录,还会有较大的差异。


这两幅图没有地图比例尺,但我估计误差不会太大。实用中精度一般都小于10m,GPS还是可依赖的。这次走错路应该和GPS精度/误差无关。 :wink:[/quote]

对于我来说,我是不会依赖GPS的,只能作为定位参考之一。也许GPS的精度够了,但电子地图的精度准确吗?记得上次找Meger Creek温泉之前,曾经在网上找到了温泉的经纬度(也是根据GPS定位的),但在好几套电子地图上的定位都是位于Lillooet River正中央,离地图上所标的位置误差直线距离大概有12公里左右,这是经纬度的误差还是电子地图的误差? :roll:
发表于 2006-5-28 11:44:25 | 显示全部楼层
以上根据的地图分别是微软的MapPoint、Google及Garmin的MapSource。
发表于 2006-5-28 12:03:53 | 显示全部楼层
虎行北美
[quote]JQK

这两幅图没有地图比例尺,但我估计误差不会太大。实用中精度一般都小于10m,GPS还是可依赖的。这次走错路应该和GPS精度/误差无关。 :wink:


对于我来说,我是不会绝对依赖GPS的,只能作为定位参考之一。也许GPS的精度够了,但电子地图的精度准确吗?记得上次找Meger Creek温泉之前,曾经在网上找到了温泉的经纬度(也是根据GPS定位的),但在好几套电子地图上的定位都是位于Lillooet River正中央,离地图上所标的位置误差直线距离大概有12公里左右,这是经纬度的误差还是电子地图的误差? :roll:[/quote]

不是绝对依赖,但是是目前我们能够获得的最精确的定位信息。:)

地图会有测量误差,但就你上次那个case而言,所有地图上都误差12km,我不相信是地图的误差或者GPS定位的误差。你能肯定你在网上找到的温泉经纬度正确么? :roll: 你到那个温泉后有GPS定位信息么?相信在地图上不会是在什么河中央。 :P

目前我使用GPS hiking的经验是Topo地图等高线密度不够、logging road/trail缺少信息,误差倒是没有什么感觉--几次出错最后发现GPS+电子地图是最正确可靠的。

不知道其他用GPS的同学们有什么经验呢?
发表于 2006-5-28 12:15:48 | 显示全部楼层
虎行北美

对于我来说,我是不会绝对依赖GPS的,只能作为定位参考之一。也许GPS的精度够了,但电子地图的精度准确吗?记得上次找Meger Creek温泉之前,曾经在网上找到了温泉的经纬度(也是根据GPS定位的),但在好几套电子地图上的定位都是位于Lillooet River正中央,离地图上所标的位置误差直线距离大概有12公里左右,这是经纬度的误差还是电子地图的误差? :roll:


贊同.  :!:
地图很重要, Garmin电子地图是有误差的可能性.
所以, 最好用人造衛星圖片定位後,把waypoints輪入GPS.
便可把准确度調高.

以下是Ministry of Forest Services的online地图,可放大,相當准确可參考. (那天可看到人造衛星圖片,今天看不到了?? )

http://srmapps.gov.bc.ca/apps/recst/html/recsites_base_map.htm

主website:
http://www.tsa.gov.bc.ca/publicrec/
p.s. 看到人造衛星圖片了,在menu選Map Layers便可.
 楼主| 发表于 2006-5-28 12:17:07 | 显示全部楼层
老虎,我猜那是因为GPS waypoint及topo map的格式问题,我们一般都用的是WGS84 Lat-Long(即Lat-Long, Degree minute, datum is WGS84),但网上找来的waypoint可能会是不同的,比如

DD-WGS84    Lat-Long, Decimal Degree, datum is WGS84  DMS-WGS84   Lat-long, Degree minute second, WGS84 UTM-WGS84   Full UTM code, datum is WGS84  UTM-NAD27C  Full UTM code, datum is NAD27Canada


再比如,在BC Basemap上用DMS-WGS84重定位waypoint方便,即 Lat-long, Degree minute second.

这样的结果就自然会有很大的误差。

这些格式的waypoint都可以相互转换的,网上还有现成的Coordinate Converter软件可利用。


转贴一文供参考:

Map Coordinate Systems

This document explains coordinate systems such as UTM and Lat-Long, and also map datums such as WGS84 or NAD27Canada. Your position on the earth can be described in two different coordinate systems: Lat-Long and UTM. Both depend on which "map datum" you are using.

"Lat-Long" means latitude-Longitude. For example, 50 degrees and 29 minutes north, 123 degrees and 50 minutes west. Latitude-Longitude coordinates are sometimes referred to as the "geodetic grid" which we abbreviate to "Geo". "UTM" means "Universal Transverse Mercator". Canadian Topographic maps have both scales, but only have grid lines for the UTM scale. The Lat-Long system is simpler and more universal, and is what is always used behind the scenes in computer systems.

A set of coordinates alone does not specify your exact position, because you need to know what "map datum" applies to those coordinates. For example, if someone tells you that the US-Canada border is at 49 degrees north, you have to ask what datum they are using. 49 degrees by what datum? See Border Slash - Is it really the 49th parallel.

There is about a 200m difference, depending on the datum. The two main datums in Canada are WGS84 and NAD27. "NAD27" means "North American Datum 1927". "WGS 84" means "World Geodetic System 1984". Eventually all maps will be WGS84, because it is based on satelite measurements. However, most Canadian topographic maps are still NAD27. The difference can be as much as 200 meters, depending on your location. Here are some comparisons of the different co-ordinates for the same point: (Mt. Garibaldi)

WGS84 Geo coordinates:  49.850-123.008 NAD27 Geo coordinates:  49.850-123.0066 WGS84 UTM coordinates:  10 U 499425 5521953

GPS receivers can be configured to display your true position in a variety of position formats and datums. For example, you can set your GPS to read out a given waypoint in WGS84 UTM coordinates. Then you can change the readout to NAD27 Canada, and you'll see different coordinates for the same point.
The Bivouac website has a similar capeability. You can display the waypoints in any one of several common combinations. The default is WGS84 Lat-Long. But if you want to mark those points onto a typical canadian topo map, then you should click the "UTM-NAD27C" link. This will redisplay the waypoints as UTM, and using the NAD 27 Canada datum.

Now that you know the general idea of lat-longs, UTM, and datums, we can now look at the different notations for writing these things down.

Lat Long Notations:

Ideally, latitudes and longitudes would be given as decimal numbers, like any other number. For example: 50.778 degrees North. But for historical reasons, most paper maps have their scales in degrees and minutes. A minute is 1/60 of a degree. So we have to accommodate that format and translate it to decimal behind the scenes.

Given that we have to input values in degree-minute format, the first problem is that there is no degree symbol on the keyboard. Although we can display lat-longs using degree symbols (Eg: 50 ° 27.2') you can't directly type such a thing, so we use a colon for the separator between degrees and minutes. For example:

  50:27.5

Note that in the above, there is only one colon, and the fractional part of a minute is delimited by a decimal point. That format is generally referred to as "Degree-Minute" (DM) format. The other common format you see in a lot of digital mapping packages is Degree-Minute-Second format (DMS format). In this format, the previous lat long becomes:

  50:27:30
  Note that the .5 minutes becomes 30 seconds.

The next requirement is a standard for writing both coordinates. We always put the latitude first, followed by the longitude. This has generally been the standard for the past 3 centuries, although lately you will see systems like BC Basemap which have it reversed.

Given that the latitude will always be first, and that all the values we are dealing with are North and West, we don't need to put "N" and "W" into our coordinates. All of North America is north and west. Therefore we just write our lat-longs as two strings separated by a dash. Anywhere in Bivouac that you are supposed to input a lat-long, they are combined. Below is the position of Mount Garibaldi in DM format:

  49:51.0-123:00.5

We will accept lat-longs in any of the three formats: decimal degree, degree-minute, and degree-minute-second format. Which format is used usually depends on the source of the data: anything coming from BC Basemap will be in DMS format, and most points from paper maps will be DM format.

Note that our format is only good for North America. Most worldwide computer systems use plus and minus to indicate North versus South, and east versus west. In this case, you would have to separate the lat and long with a space, as shown below:

  49:51.0 -123:00.5

  UTM Formats

Before computers, the traditional method used by Canadian mountaineers was to communicate positions by using friendly looking grid references like "234-234 on map 92 G/15. The reason it looks simple is because nobody bothered to specify the datum, and they also threw away the upper digits, because they were giving the mapsheet. However, such simple minded grid references don't work once you get away from paper maps. Nowdays, if you are going to use UTM coordinates, you should understand the full UTM system. (Or use Lat-long).

The full blown UTM format has four parts as shown below:

  10 U 499425 5521953

The first is the "Zone number", then the "Zone Letter", then the "Easting" and then the "Northing". Note that for some reason the UTM gives the east-west coordinate first, rather than following the lat-long standard of giving the north-south coordinate first.

The last decimal place is accurate to exactly 1 meter. Because a full UTM code is cumbersome, the grid lines on 1:50,000 maps are labelled by rounding off the last three digits, and also throwing away the first digits, such that only 2 digits remain. In the corner of the map the full number is given, but then each subsequent line is labelled with a two digit number, as shown below:


  64      465000m  66      67      68      69       70      71       72       73       74   

The above grid lines are 1 km apart. In mountaineering guidebooks, grid references are usually written to the nearest 100m which is about as accurate as you can estimate from a map. For example, an article might state that the whole trip was on map 92G/6, and then give grid references like GR 878-569 or GR 878569.
发表于 2006-5-28 12:36:32 | 显示全部楼层
QQ
对啊, 你就能肯定你在网上down的相关Trail的GPS数据就是准确的吗?所以说最关键的是自己的观察与判断,GPS只能作为参考之一,而不是依赖GPS
发表于 2006-5-28 12:49:49 | 显示全部楼层
虎行北美
所以说最关键的是自己的观察与判断,GPS只能作为参考之一,而不是依赖GPS


因此, Lulu 和 我 也會帶一個compass在身. 不過要學懂用compass和地圖會好一點.  :lol:
 楼主| 发表于 2006-5-28 12:59:51 | 显示全部楼层
JQK
看来确实是大意了,呵呵。如果有正确的waypoints或者103的地图的话应该就能及早发现了。你只有trailhead的waypoint?


相信如果走上trail就不会有routefinding的问题了,我的GPS里预装有几个trail的waypoints和两个logging road junction waypoints(一个是Jct Mamquam River Main/E100,另一个是 Jct Mamquam E100 & Mamquam E110),但GPS里没有这些logging road的信息,而且我们走错的路和正确的logging road平行,方向一致,距离很近只隔了条Mamquam River,我们以为能走到Junction waypoint处,但在灌木密集的野外是有一定难度的,现在又是high water期,河宽水急,想自己寻路就近走回到trail上去都没有成功。
发表于 2006-5-28 13:02:10 | 显示全部楼层
ALEXYIM
[quote]虎行北美
所以说最关键的是自己的观察与判断,GPS只能作为参考之一,而不是依赖GPS


因此, Lulu 和 我 也會帶一個compass在身. 不過要學懂用compass和地圖會好一點.  :lol:[/quote]

完全赞同,要参考多种数据,仔细观测/观察,综合判断。有时候太现代化的工具也会误导大家,往往原始的工具有时候还是很可靠的。

BTW,纬度1°的距离约111.133 KM,经度1°的距离约为111.413cosφ,φ为所处位置的纬度。
 楼主| 发表于 2006-5-28 13:14:29 | 显示全部楼层
地图,指南针,参考的信息资料必备,GPS最好也有(对我来说是必备 :lol: ),它对我以往的hiking/backing的找路有过很多极大的帮助。比如冬天的trail标记给雪盖住,很多次都成功地靠GPS找路,带纸地图查看不方便而且雨天雪天容易湿。

利器多多益善,重要的是要学会用好它,并和其它工具结合起来用,不要单单地盲目依靠GPS。
发表于 2006-5-28 13:43:32 | 显示全部楼层
lulululu
地图,指南针,参考的信息资料必备,GPS最好也有(对我来说是必备 :lol: ),它对我以往的hiking/backing的找路有过很多极大的帮助。比如冬天的trail标记给雪盖住,很多次都成功地靠GPS找路,带纸地图查看不方便而且雨天雪天容易湿。

利器多多益善,重要的是要学会用好它,并和其它工具结合起来用,不要单单地盲目依靠GPS。


對呵! 老虎 你滑野雪有GPS會非常好. 由其是white out 的程況下.
发表于 2006-5-28 13:57:29 | 显示全部楼层
ALEXYIM
[quote]lulululu
地图,指南针,参考的信息资料必备,GPS最好也有(对我来说是必备 :lol: ),它对我以往的hiking/backing的找路有过很多极大的帮助。比如冬天的trail标记给雪盖住,很多次都成功地靠GPS找路,带纸地图查看不方便而且雨天雪天容易湿。

利器多多益善,重要的是要学会用好它,并和其它工具结合起来用,不要单单地盲目依靠GPS。


對呵! 老虎 你滑野雪有GPS會非常好. 由其是white out 的程況下.[/quote]

对,已经选好型号了,garmin 60csx,打算最近就买。:)
发表于 2006-5-28 14:59:13 | 显示全部楼层
虎行北美
QQ
对啊, 你就能肯定你在网上down的相关Trail的GPS数据就是准确的吗?所以说最关键的是自己的观察与判断,GPS只能作为参考之一,而不是依赖GPS


老虎啊,不要偷换概念,:P :P 我没有说不观察与判断,GPS只能提供你所在位置的信息,我说的可依赖是指它所提供的定位信息是基本准确可靠的,绝大多数情况下我会根据GPS提供的这个位置信息来分析。我不轻易相信网上down的trail信息,要先和其他信息源确认一致后再用。

地图的误差(甚至错误),电子地图可能有,纸地图也可能有。指南针的误差(测量误差、阅读误差、系统误差)更大--问个问题:磁北极可不是真北极,你们用指南针的时候考虑不同经纬度的矫正了么?Vancouver的矫正值可是东20度!:D 相对来说,GPS提供的信息是最准确的。就lulu他们这次的情况来看,地图/GPS/trail waypoints等都是准确的,平行的logging road是最大的迷惑点。 :roll:

关于地图准确性,我指的是topo图。TOPO地图还是比较准确的,城市地图单论(昨天GPS就让我在禁左的地方左转,我依赖的是它提供的位置信息,而不是具体如何走),所以Topo图很少有版本更新--山川河流变化的可能性小得多呀。我没有印象有发现Topo图明显错误/不准确的时候,只是有一次等高线密度不够没有能够提前从topo图看到大约30m高的近90度的悬崖--这需要极高密度的等高线才可能看到。

我印象很深的一次找路是Eagle ridge,到一片开阔地后路标消失,大家(包括我)的感觉都是沿着原来trail的方向走,而且那边看起来更象trail。但我从GPS上看,我们正好在一条creek边--冬天creek全被覆盖,如果不说的话谁都不会留意--根据位置确认是一条creek,再看地图(GPS里没有waypoints),判断应该是沿creek上行(与原trail 成90度)。最后坚持沿creek走,大概200-300米后发现树上很不显眼被雪埋了一半的路标。

现在hiking,我依赖的信息优先顺序是trail标记>GPS+trail地图(电子/paper,两者都有我会确认其一致之后用电子的,毕竟方便多了)>指南针+paper地图。有trail标记时一般懒得看GPS,所以直觉也很重要,有几次是有trail标记但感觉不对,检查GPS发现果然不对再改回的。:D
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